Is all protein created equal? - Page 3 - ThinnerTimes

MiladyB · 06-20-2008, 03:30 PM

Thanks for adding your input. I think it is important for all of us to educate ourselves and then make our own personal decision.

The information that I originally posted was from my nutritionist who has recently been doing a study about these types of products. She presented at the national conference of Bariatrics this week in Washington DC. I really trust what she has to say and apparently the National Society of Bariatrics feels what she has to say is important, so for myself, I think I will be paying attention to what she had to say.

We all have to make what ever decision that we feel is best for ourselves. The important thing is to educate ourselves and make an informed decision about what is best for our health.

BabyNicole · 06-20-2008, 04:37 PM

I also wanted to add my "research" on those bullets/vials.

I went to the Vitamin Shoppe on two different occasions. Each time (two different salesmen) I was told that those New Whey/Profect bullets were not the best protein. The first time the salesman told me he doesn't even recommend them at all!

Now, believe me, I understand not being able to tolerate the taste of protein. Frankly, I think it's utterly nasty. I did find one I finally like today (Syntrax Lemonade). But, before I got the Syntrax I figured that if the bullets taste good, getting some protein is better than none. Well, I tasted one sip of the Profect vial, and I almost threw up!! I was gagging like crazy, and I'm not even stapled yet! So, I will not be drinking those bullets. I guess not liking them is a good thing!

PS. I wanted to add that my NUT did recommend the vials. When meeting with her, I will be telling her my "findings."

PSS. My thanks to Milady, b/c if it weren't for you I wouldn't have known about the bullets at all!

MiladyB · 06-21-2008, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BabyNicole

I also wanted to add my "research" on those bullets/vials.

I went to the Vitamin Shoppe on two different occasions. Each time (two different salesmen) I was told that those New Whey/Profect bullets were not the best protein. The first time the salesman told me he doesn't even recommend them at all!

Now, believe me, I understand not being able to tolerate the taste of protein. Frankly, I think it's utterly nasty. I did find one I finally like today (Syntrax Lemonade). But, before I got the Syntrax I figured that if the bullets taste good, getting some protein is better than none. Well, I tasted one sip of the Profect vial, and I almost threw up!! I was gagging like crazy, and I'm not even stapled yet! So, I will not be drinking those bullets. I guess not liking them is a good thing!

PS. I wanted to add that my NUT did recommend the vials. When meeting with her, I will be telling her my "findings."

PSS. My thanks to Milady, b/c if it weren't for you I wouldn't have known about the bullets at all!

Nicole, please do share this information with your nutritionist. It's intersting to hear that even the salesmen from the Vitamin Shoppe weren't even recommending them. That kind of says something to me considering that they are looking to sell product. Kuddos to them for being honest.

BabyNicole · 06-21-2008, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiladyB

Nicole, please do share this information with your nutritionist. It's intersting to hear that even the salesmen from the Vitamin Shoppe weren't even recommending them. That kind of says something to me considering that they are looking to sell product. Kuddos to them for being honest.

Oh I will!

And I was also impressed with the salesmen. They really new their stuff!

MiladyB · 06-24-2008, 09:29 AM

With the desire to educate myself and others about what the best choices are for us, in regards to protein intake, I sent an email off to a friend of mine. Dr James Paauw is a physician who specializes in nutritional deficiencies. He works with patients within the hospital setting who have nutritional deficiencies. I sent him the responses from the New Whey company and the Unjury company in hopes of getting a better understanding of all of this and the importance of the scores put out there. Here is his response.

Beth,

You've wandered into a huge swamp of an issue. There is a lot of subtle twisting of words in both of these product statements. I could probably write several pages on this issue, but I'll be brief. The "efficiency" of a protein is measured as a protein score, which tells you how that protein measures up with regard to the 8 essential amino acids. The score is based on the protein's "limiting essential amino acid", that is, the one amino acid the protein has the least of compared to the reference value of an ideal amino acid dietary pattern for humans (generally, egg white is considered to have a value of 1, and is often considered the reference protein). Hence, a protein score measures a protein at it's '"weakest" point. If a protein has 100% of 7 of the essential amino acids, but only 30% of the 8th amino acid, it will get a score of 0.3, despite the fact that it appears to be a pretty good protein source, otherwise. (The New Whey product (the vials) have a score of 0.06) A key point to keep in mind when considering protein scores, is that they are really only critical to use if that is the only protein that one is eating. Hence, if all you eat is the 0.3 score protein, you'll obviously eventually develop a deficiency in that limiting amino acid, and start to break down your own muscle to get it. However, since almost no humans eat just one protein, this is not likely to happen. There is a concept in protein metabolism called "complementary proteins", which describes the blending of amino acid patterns from different proteins to make a new "whole". For example, you could combine our 0.3 score protein with another low score protein and have the perfect 1.0 combination. You may only need a small amount of the second protein to provide enough of that 8th amino acid to achieve that value of 1.0. Since most of us eat a pretty varied array of proteins, the amino acid score of any supplement we take may be pretty much a moot point. I think it is very unlikely that any of your group members will be deficient in any given essential amino acid, regardless of which protein supplement they take. Having said this, I think that you can see that this debate between companies is primarily a promotional ploy to gain market share. Hope this helps.

Jim

Now that being said, for myself I am really not concerned because I don't weigh heavily on the use of protein supplements. I do take some on occasions but I have many varied sources of protein. But for those of you out there who are really early postop and are pretty much totally weighing completely on the use of protein supplements to get in your protein. Well, I hope you pay attention to information in this thread. You may be causing yourself some harm if you are only using one protein supplement with a really low score. If you are using a wide variety of sources there probably isn't a huge concern, but if not? Well personally I feel it may not be the best choice for you. Just my own personal take on this subject.

Angel~in~KY · 06-24-2008, 10:23 AM

Excellent info Beth!

So if I understand this correctly it sounds like bullet protein is probably ok for taking on vacation as a backup for when dinner might not suit you or etc (so long as this isn't the only protein source). It even sounds like bullets would be ok once you've reached a food stage where you are consuming some variety of protein foods.

I personally don't want to take any chances during the immediate post op stage though, so I'll be sticking with whey isolate for that time. But I am thinking that a couple bullets might be a great idea to stash in my bag when I go to France in December.

MiladyB · 06-24-2008, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angel~in~KY

Excellent info Beth!

So if I understand this correctly it sounds like bullet protein is probably ok for taking on vacation as a backup for when dinner might not suit you or etc (so long as this isn't the only protein source). It even sounds like bullets would be ok once you've reached a food stage where you are consuming some variety of protein foods.

I personally don't want to take any chances during the immediate post op stage though, so I'll be sticking with whey isolate for that time. But I am thinking that a couple bullets might be a great idea to stash in my bag when I go to France in December.

That would be my take on it, Angel. One word of caution though from my nutritionist. "Just a warning--I have had patients with protein malnutrition using the "bullets/shooters" as a protein source "

I suspect these may be patients who are exclusively or close to exclusively using the protein bullets. But I don't know for sure.

I just think we really need to be careful with them. I know they seem like the quick and easy answer but they honestly don't sound as if they are the best choice for us, at least in my humble opinion.

We all have to make our own personal decision for ourselves. We honestly are the only person who can control our own health. For myself? I won't be using them and if I was early postop I still probably would look to a different protein source but that is me. I just want to put out there as much information as possible so that people can make their own personal choice of what they feel is best for themselves.

MiladyB · 06-24-2008, 01:51 PM

Here is some further input from Dr Paauw that I thought I would share.

My question and email to him.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: Beth Rogers [mailto:lvgr@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2008 10:40 AM
To: Paauw, James D.
Subject: Re: Looking for your opnion

Jim,

Thank you for explaining all of that for me. It does clear things up for me. I do know that the nutritionist within Dr Baker's office doesn't recommend that her patients use proteins with low scores. I suspect that is because early postop our protein source is VERY limited and it is actually fairly realistic that some people may only get their protein from one source. I personally know people who down the small protein vials that have a score of .06 and think they have gotten in ALL of their protein requirements for the day and call it good. So coming from that stand point, would it be the smartest choice to be using protein supplements with really low scores?

Really early postop it is a HUGE struggle to get in the protein requirements of 60-90 grams. It is also a really big struggle to even eat. Many people are looking at these small protein vials as a life saver. There are vials out there that contain 45 grams of protein (but there score is .06). People all over the bariatric world are putting out tons of money for these things just so they can get their protein in. They drink one of these vials throughout the day figuring that they have gotten in 45 grams of their requirements and just maybe get in the rest of their requirements by means of regular food. I guess there is enough concern in my mind that I don't think I will be recommending those kinds of products to people that I come in contact with.

So, as a physician, if a patient came to you and asked you, "What kind of product should I purchase to use to get the large majority of my protein requirements from?" What would your suggestion be? One with a low score? One with the higher score? Or that it really doesn't matter as long as you are getting in 60 grams minimum. I honestly get asked that question alot. I know Christine's thoughts on it (Dr Baker's nutritionist) but I'm curious what your answer would be.

Thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question, Jim. You are a fantastic resource and teacher for me and I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.

His reponse:

Beth,
Your description of the use of these products raises a big concern for me. People should be eating enough to make their dietary protein complementary to whatever extra protein source they're taking. If they're not, I would not encourage the use of a modular protein as a near-solo source of protein (and calories), since this, in all likelihood, carries a bigger risk than simple balanced starvation. The liquid protein weight loss diets of the late 80's revealed that dietary nonprotein calories (particularly carbohydrate) had to be high enough to "spare" protein, or one's metabolic machinery will flip into a catabolic mode, using protein (both dietary and endogenous) as fuel substrate. The liquid protein diets resulted in some catastrophic complications, including death. This experience showed that one had to be taking in a minimum of about 500 nonprotein calories to prevent this wholesale breakdown of protein for energy. Hence, my advice would be not to use these modular protein supplements at all unless one is taking in at least 500 other calories, in which case the type of supplementary protein may not be as critical (although milk proteins such as whey are probably always more desireable than collagen, which, if it did become the major source of dietary protein, is not a very complete protein.) If one can't take even 500 calories, I think that that person would be better off taking a balanced complete (meaning one with a higher score.) dietary supplement,such as Carnation Instant Breakfast or Ensure at the lower caloric intake, on the premise that a balanced under-intake is safer than what amounts to a liquid protein diet.
Jim

sherry7 · 06-24-2008, 06:02 PM

As always, fascinating information Beth...and thank you for sharing it with us.

I'm only 3 1/2 weeks out, but I'm finding that I can get most of my protein through regular food (my doc recommends 60 grams a day). I've been eating a lot of unbreaded pre-cooked shrimp (if you can call 2 ounces at a time a lot!), chicken breast, tuna, tilapia fish, lean beef, LF ricotta cheese, FF or LF cottage cheese, FF refried beans, an occasional scrambled egg with LF cheddar cheese, etc. If memory serves me right, 3 ounces of unbreaded shrimp has 17 grams of protein, and other meats/fish are fairly similar. IMO, if a person concentrates on eating their protein-rich foods first, the need for a protein supplement is going to be minimalized. And when that protein supplement is necessary, you're doing your body a favor by using whey protein isolate, and not one of the inferior products.

Beth, I recall a post from you from awhile back that I read. Basically you said something like this: "I want to feel like a normal person, and eat normal food for my protein as much as I can instead of relying so much on protein drinks." I'm probably butchering what you actually said, but the point is...the thought has stuck in my brain since I read it, and I've tried my hardest to stick to your mantra. Afterall, what tastes better...a protein shake, or some unbreaded shrimp with a bit of cocktail sauce on the side? I know what my choice is! I might have had my stomach operated on, but my brain is still intact (well, mostly intact

)...and it tells me I'd rather chew on something, rather than have a liquid meal.

Angel, I agree with you...I'm only going to use the protein bullets if I'm in a circumstance where I don't have a better choice. Vacation is a perfect example. Even then, it's probably almost as easy to have some Nectar Syntrax powder pre-packed in a baggy, and just mix it with a bottle of water.

mistymee · 06-24-2008, 06:19 PM

Angel.. I can just see the airport security going through your bags and pulling one of these out

It makes me laugh anyway.. every time I look at that picture and remember seeing them all over the floor at work (box broke open during unpacking from vendor).. and my boss coming over and asking what I would do with them when they were empty... stupid me pipes up with "put a battery in them and see what happens!" LOL.. (yeah, we're sooo not PC in our office! )